Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:54 EDT
|Andrzej M. Łobaczewski, November 2005|
The editors of sott.net were recently informed that, after a long period of illness, Dr. Andrzej M. Łobaczewski passed away in late November of last year. Łobaczewski was the author of Political Ponerology: A science on the nature of evil adjusted for political purposes.
He was born in 1921 and grew up on a rural estate in the piedmont vicinity of Poland. Under the Nazi occupation of Poland he worked on the family farm, was an apiarist, and then a soldier of the Home Army, an underground Polish resistance organization. After the Soviet invasion of Poland, the family estate was confiscated and the Łobaczewski family was driven from their ancient home.
Łobaczewski's desire to learn psychology grew during World War II, and after the war he attended Yagiellonian University in Cracow while working to support himself and his studies. The conditions under Communist rule turned his attention to the matters of psychopathology, especially to the role of psychopathic persons in such a governmental system. As his investigations proceeded, he learned that he was not the first such researcher to follow this line of thinking. As others became aware of his questions, it was made known to him that a similar work was already underway, having been begun by a secret agreement of scientists of the older generation which included Kazimierz Dąbrowski. Łobaczewski joined this effort, but the network of scientific collaborators, and their work, was soon destroyed by the Communist Secret Police. Łobaczewski undertook the task of completing the work and putting it in writing.
Working in a mental hospital, then a general hospital, and finally in the open mental health service, Łobaczewski improved his skills in clinical diagnosis and psychotherapy. Finally, when suspected by the political authorities of knowing too much about the pathological nature of the system, he was forced to burn the manuscript of the collected research only a few minutes ahead of a search by the Communist Secret Police. After this disaster, he painfully assembled a second version of the manuscript which he sent to the Vatican in care of a tourist acting as courier. No word was ever received about the fate of this document. In 1977, the Roman correspondent to Radio Free Europe, to whom Łobaczewski had spoken about the work, denounced him to the Polish authorities. He was forced to emigrate in 1977, and all his papers, books, and research materials were confiscated.
In the USA, his efforts to bring the results of this research were stymied by the activities of communism in the United States both in academia and in the publishing industry. In spite of very difficult opposition, he re-wrote the manuscript - the research into psychopathy and other psychopathologies and how they dominate totalitarian government systems - as best he could from memory in New York in 1984. All attempts to publish this book at this time failed. A small printing of copies for academics was the only result, and these soon faded from view. (SOTT research has uncovered the fact that at least some academics must have read this material - or heard of it - and incorporated the ideas into their own work. Robert Rieber of John Jay College of Criminal Justice being a case in point.)
His health broken, Łobaczewski returned to Poland in 1990. His health was partially restored under the care of old friends in the medical profession, and he became able to work again. He soon published another of his works on topics of psychotherapy and socio-psychology and began to transcribe the manuscript of Political Ponerology that he had written by hand in 1984 into a computer file.
Despite the horrors he witnessed and experienced, including the loss of most of his family, Łobaczewski remained a courageous and gentle soul. His compassion, understanding, and tangible hope for humanity pervade his work, both clinical and written. He saw the condition of our world, and the disease which has plagued humanity for millennia. And yet he also saw the possibility of a better future. His work, Political Ponerology, embodies this hope, as the following words which conclude the book, show. It is up to us to see that his vision is remembered, and that his work was not completed in vain.
A system thus envisaged would be superior to all its predecessors, being based upon an understanding of the laws of nature operating within individuals and societies, with objective knowledge progressively superseding opinions based upon natural [emotional] responses to phenomena. We should call it a "LOGOCRACY".
Due to their properties and conformity to the laws of nature and evolution, logocratic systems could guarantee social and international order on a long-term basis. In keeping with their nature, they would then become transformed into more perfect forms, a vague and faraway vision of which may beckon to us in the present.
The author has survived many dangerous situations and become disappointed with many people and institutions. However, the Great Providence has never disappointed him under the most difficult circumstances. This condition suffices to permit him to promise that elaborating a more detailed draft for such a necessary better system will also be possible. ...
What is of crucial importance is to fully grasp the importance of the science of Ponerology and how many applications it may have for a future of peace and a humane humanity. This science permits the human mind to understand things that have been, for millennia, unintelligible: the genesis of evil. This understanding could very well bring about a turning point in the history of civilization which, I should add, is presently on the point of self-destruction.
Therefore, my request to you is: Be not shocked with the immense size of the task! Take it as a work to be gradually performed and hope that many other people will come to help and thus progress will be assured.
It seems that, in the natural order of things, that those persons who have suffered the most from psychopaths or bearers of other mental anomalies, will be those called to do this work, to accept the burden. If you do, accept also, ladies and gentlemen, your fate with an open heart and humility, and always with a sense of humor. Cherish assistance from the Universal Mind and know that Great Values often grow from Great Suffering.
In 2005, Łobaczewski sent a copy of his manuscript to the editors of sott.net and on 19 November 2005, a team of SOTT editors in Eastern Europe conducted our first interview with him in Rzeszow, Poland. What follows is an English translation of that interview. Unfortunately, although he was committed to the task until his last moments, he was unable to complete the volume he had hoped to write before his death.
Q: We are interested in what induced you to start studying evil in general and its genesis?
A: The genesis of evil? Dear Madam, many breakthroughs, particularly in psychology, occur spontaneously. The best experiments begin when someone notices something peculiar and starts to work on it. As far as the genesis of ponerology is concerned, similarly, I never had a specific prior intention; it simply occurred spontaneously in very difficult times. For those were times of Soviet captivity and evil was in abundance. I, personally, experienced a big share [of this evil]. Three times I was imprisoned. So, in our society there was an attitude of wondering what evil was. Also, the relevant science had reached a sufficient level of maturity. Similarly, if there had not been Copernicus, his discovery would have been quickly discovered by another, because mathematics had matured to such a state that it was possible to conduct such calculations. So, I never had such an intention.
Q: Maybe you could tell something about ponerology; who was the first to use this term?
A: I used the term 'ponerology' [to describe the specific subject of our research], but the priests from Tyniec were the first. [Ponerology is the theological study of evil, derived from poneros in New Testament Greek, which implies an inborn evil with a corrupting influence.] Would you like to hear about the history of this research?
Q: Yes, who started it?
A: In this area I have very little [factual] information. For these were very difficult times and this type of research had to be conducted in strict secrecy. If the authorities had caught anybody doing it, they would have been given no court trial. Rather, they would be sent straight to the other world [i.e. execution without trial] or given a softer sentence - expulsion abroad. So, under the circumstances, one applied what we learned from experience: I do not know names of others and I do not ask...
Q: Full conspiracy, in other words.
A: Yes, for even if I were caught and forced to talk, I would not know any names.
Q: So, you were cooperating not knowing precisely with whom.
A: Yes. I received data always titled "children with some defects", without any names. My contact was professor Szuman, who was not [at that time] active in this field anymore, since he was too old. He was already an old man, but he would still take research material from this man or that man and deliver or have it transferred to me.
Q: And where was professor Szuman at that time?
A: At that time in Warsaw, already retired in Warsaw. And...
Q: And where were you then? Already in Rzeszow?
A: No, I was never in Warsaw - only in transit. I was working at that time in Branice, which is near the Czech border. Branice had the biggest psychiatric hospital in Poland. Later I moved to Silesia and worked first in a hospital, next [as an industrial psychologist] in the coal mining industry - which was beneficial, because I conducted mass examinations and was able to extract statistical data - and later I returned to clinical psychology. Wherever I was, it was impossible to avoid some political adventures. They had their eye on me constantly.
In the early sixties there was a congress of psychiatrists in Hungary. There was a debate, naturally, over the official subject of schizophrenia diagnostics. I was not personally there, but a little bit of my paper was presented - part of it - about the fact that I do not believe in these three types of schizophrenia - I consider them three completely separate diseases. So, after the official proceedings, over coffee, old pre-war friends gathered and a discussion was started about what this political system essentially represents. Already there was no doubt that we were dealing with a macrosocial psychopathological phenomenon.
That is what I know. I know that in Poland professor Stefan Blachowski from Poznan, who died in mysterious circumstances, was engaged in this research. And professor Dabrowski, who was rather focused on researching the theoretical foundations. Kazimierz Dabrowski.
Q: But professor Dabrowski did not have problems with publishing his own works...
A: I had... No... I had a publishing blockade.
Q: No, but I speak about professor Dabrowski.
A: No, he also could not publish any works regarding, or even mentioning, this [specific] matter. There is one case of publishing, by some lady, who published a paper about psychopathies in Psychological Review, which somehow miraculously went through. I also published a paper, purely about clinical technicalities, after which the editor of Psychological Review received a vigovor ['a dismissal'] and did not publish my papers anymore. And so it was. We lived in such times.
Q: So, the subject of psychopathy was a taboo during the communist times?
A: This was an absolute taboo. I dedicate one chapter in my book to this subject [chapter VII]. You will read this, you Madam in Polish, and you Sir in English, right?
In fact, I joined this 'club' rather late. My considerations started in other conditions, which I also describe [in chapter I of Ponerology]. I was in Krakow attending mandatory indoctrination lectures. Our new "professor", a typical case of psychopathy proper, was such a glaring example that he simply compelled me to this road. One can consider him a promoter of the research on psychopathy.
Q: The initiator...
A: Yes. So, I was already so advanced in this research that when I received the first contact [with this group of researchers], they wanted me to lead research regarding the differentiation of psychopathy. Obviously, I undertook this research, but I knew what was going on immediately. I did what I could, but the psychiatric hospital was not a good place for this type of research, because one has a different type of patient. And so I found there, actually, the proper route [i.e. the inspirational role of psychopathy], and later, when I had in front of me the mass of people - for example working within mining industry, where I was examining a few, even several people every day - I was already able to make statistical summaries...
Q: How come you went to America?
A: How come? Well, they promised me that either they would put me behind bars for the fourth time or "we shall give you your passport". So, that... I did not know, and nobody in Poland realized, just how much influence the "security apparatus" [Sluzba Bezpieczenstwa (SB) or State Security Service], with the help of Jews, had on Polish emigrants living abroad. Nobody realized this at all.
So, when I found myself in the United States, I became the subject of such persecution that eventually there was nothing I could do and my health collapsed. I ended up in the hospital, in intensive care, and so it was already - or so it seemed to me - the end of my activity. I returned after some time to work, but then I was fired because among my things they found a book about the history of the Jews, which was not anti-Semitic at all. The author sympathized with the Jews, but there were very harsh remarks against the Jews quoted, and these citations were not translated to Polish, but they were in English and in French, etc. So, they found the citations and deemed me to be an anti-Semite and fired me. I became unemployed and received unemployment benefits for nine months and during these nine months I was able to work and write this book.
Q: This was nineteen eighty...?
A: They fired me in '83, and it was already written at the end of '84. At this time I had only a few dollars and I did not know what would happen to me. My phone rang and they called me in to work. It turned out that the person who organized the entire plot was a communist, and somehow I was cleared of the charges. I was not admitted back to the same work, but to a bureau in charge of child care. So, I was slightly closer to psychology and there I worked until the end [of my stay in the United States].
Q: In the introduction to your book we read that it was the third attempt. Can you tell us something on this subject?
A: This was the third attempt at writing the book. I wrote the first in my native country and I learnt through the local Silesians that I was about to have... "Soon there will be a search at your place." So, I took all I had, took it to a boiler house, and I threw it in a stove.
Q: And what year was that?
A: This was '68, I suppose.
Q: So during Gomulka's rule...
A: The second I wrote and sent through some man to the Vatican - to bishop Descura - whom I knew a little. It never made it there.
Q: And in what circumstances did you hand the book over to that courier?
A: I actually handed over the book to the courier in Bulgaria. No, it was not a courier. It was a man from America, you see, supposedly Polish. Later, when I was in America, I managed to reach him by phone and he said something nonsensical, so I realized that he never actually sent the book.
Q: Do you think it could have been an agent, who deliberately took the work from you?
A: Could have been, could have been, could have been... Yes, but it was not him who betrayed me to the authorities. I suspected many people, but the Institute of National Remembrance found the person who betrayed me: the Roman correspondent for Radio Free Europe.
Q: Who would think?
A: For I had talked with him... Well, supposedly a Pole, supposedly from the Free Europe. I chatted with him a little - he denounced everything to the authorities. I learned about it only recently, not even a year ago. The Institute mailed me about it.
Q: Did it do so by itself or were you seeking this information?
A: I requested the Institute to search for it on my behalf.
Q: In other words, one may suppose that the second copy found itself somewhere in America. He brought it to America, and someone... In unexplained circumstances it was handed farther, archived or destroyed?
A: I do not know what happened to that copy. However I suspect what happened to another copy of the book. As it was already after my unemployment period, when I finally had some income, I went to a congress of Polish culture in London. Well, immediately two allegedly famous psychologists sat next to me, one from Canada, the other supposedly from South Africa - some major scholars. But the one from Canada did not know the time difference between Ottawa and London, and I also caught the other on some other contradiction. So finally they stopped pretending and it turned out that these were two Security Service (SB) agents from Krakow. And so I lent my book - I did not give it away - I lent it to a local philosopher. Soon after, it turned out that he did not have it in his possession - they did. It occurred under instructions from the Polish government in London. So, well... and here some strange things started to happen. Mikhail was... Mikhail Gorbachev went to Rome, to the Pope [on 1 December 1989]. And actually throughout the meeting he wanted to find out if the Pope knew about this science. He was asking questions about it... Somehow this report was published, for it was incomprehensible to most, and I received the newspaper with this...
Q: In other words it means that high Soviet authorities were aware...
A: So, the book was forwarded to our "elder brother" [i.e. the Soviet Union] - it has already been translated to Russian - and it played there some role, but what role? Well, I will never know. In the introduction of my book I ask that if readers know anything, to let me know about it. I know nothing more on this subject. And whether the book threw Gorbachev against the wall, well... So, this is the history of the book. And finally I wanted to publish it in America. Mr Zbigniew Brzezinski read it. He was full of enthusiasm both towards the book itself and its translation. He said that the translator had done an excellent job and that he would take care of its publication. And so I believed him in my naivete.
Q: I would personally not believe him so easily...
A: Unfortunately, I believed him. And then some strange difficulties occurred... He started to answer me somewhat negatively. Something was happening. I was writing letters; I have an entire file of correspondence with him. Eventually, only his secretary answered me, and then I reached him and he said, "Pity that it did not work out", in other words...
Q: It did not succeed.
A: ...he strangled the matter, treacherously.
Q: Either he or somebody else behind him.
A: Yes, because he is an "insider" of that entire enormous system. I mean, he is not on the top, he does not belong to the "order", he is merely an "insider", and there are about three hundred of them. [Łobaczewski is possibly referring to the "Committee of 300", the subject of Dr. John Coleman's book Conspirator's Hierarchy.]
Q: And who in your opinion is on the top? What do you mean by the "order"?
A: The "Order"? Well, I cannot know who is there in the "order".
Q: Well, you think something about it, so what is your opinion?
A: I have a certain opinion. Well, this "order" is the center [of the pathocratic 'brotherhood'], which is located in England outside of London... The Trilateral Commission belongs to that center.
Q: And the fact that Mr. Brzezinski was the president of the Trilateral Commission... However, it is only one of the organizations and not necessarily...
A: ...and not necessarily the worst.
Q: ...the one on the very top, yes.
A: Yes, because (for example), the Japanese belong there, who are, so to say, they are taking care of their own interests, and not someone else's.
So, well, eventually I started to get sicker and sicker, I barely managed to work, I was barely carrying on. Finally, I retired there [in the US] and with my miserable pension I returned to my country, sick, so I did not believe that I would... I would not believe back then that I was to live yet another fifteen years. And so I came across old acquaintances, doctors from the hospital where I used to work. And they set about taking care of me intensively, and so somehow I live till this day. This is it, as far as I'm concerned.
Q: So they took care of you rather well. Old friendships did not get rusted.
A: Yes, quite... well, they did not get rusted.
Q: You attribute manifestations of evil in the world to psychopaths. They are in the greater part guilty of evil, but the question is, do you think that there is somewhere a deeper source of the evil?
A: Dear Madam, psychopathological factors - different psychopathological factors, for there are many - constantly and permanently contribute to the genesis of evil. If in this... if one was doing a chemical synthesis, all ingredients must be present. If the pathological factor is missing, then the synthesis of evil ceases to function. If moral weaknesses of man were missing, and man strictly stands on the foundation of rigid morality, the result is the same. If a man is very wise and understands a lot in this subject, then in the same way he resists the evil. In other words, in the synthesis of evil the psychopathological factor is not the main one, but it is the eternal one.
Q: Are you of the opinion that psychopaths themselves are the evil, or is there some other factor?
A: No, one cannot say that only psychopaths are the evil. They are the initiating factor. But not only psychopaths, because Polish psychiatry has for a long time clearly distinguished characteropathy and psychopathy. Characteropathy appears when damage in the brain tissue occurs and such a person possesses defects of character caused by the fact that something in the brain does not work as it should, or there is a tissue loss, as in the case of Stalin (missing tissue in areas 10A and B), and psychopathy is hereditary. In the imposed psychiatry of the Communist era, which lasts in Poland until this day, these concepts are completely mixed, so that one could not... and then it is not possible to properly explain anything with diagnosis. [Various disorders are included in one overarching category like "antisocial personality disorder".] We consider only such a condition being psychopathy, which has a hereditary foundation. Or alternatively something which is a result of some chromosomal anomalies, but the latter ones are rather rare.
Q: So, how does transferring of psychopathy through genetics relate to it?
A: It means that respective forms of psychopathy are transferred in different ways and I personally propose certain hypotheses with respect to inheritance of psychopathy, but very cautious ones. That means that in my experience, I have not seen a case where the mother was entirely normal, the father was a psychopath, and the son was a psychopath, too.
Q: Not this way? So, how?
A: It is inherited via mother, the same as Daltonism or hemophilia. One is inheriting it via the mother. This is the case as far as the essential psychopathy is concerned. Schizoidia is probably inherited autosomally, through non-sex chromosomes, not via chromosomes X and Y, but via certain series of autosomal chromosomes. Therefore, the inheriting process differs. Finally, psychiatrists of the past mention the asthenic psychopathy as the most numerous. It is generally a broad category full of somewhat different conditions, difficult to differentiate, because these are results of fetal deprivation, therefore, it can be hereditary in nature or not. So, researching exactly the biological properties of psychopathy, the genetic properties of psychopathy, is very much needed in order to understand exactly this aspect of genesis of evil.
Q: Well, this genetic anomaly appeared from somewhere...
A: Well, this is already only philosophy. What was earlier, when it was created? Do mutations occur in modern times? Certainly, it happens in modern times that the gene falls out, "checks itself out", and the son of a famous psychopath is a normal person and gravitates towards the world of normal men, and he, let's say, revolts against the party until he finally lands behind bars with others like me.
Q: And can one manage to overcome psychopathy alone, for example, when one is afflicted with it?
A: Dear Madam, well, can one manage to overcome it? No. This is a para-Homo sapiens. He feels otherwise, thinks otherwise and he cannot overcome himself... For example, in case of characteropathy, psychotherapy and the good will of the patient may help a great deal.
Q: Whereas not in the case of psychopathy.
A: In case of characteropathy, the first thing that the psychotherapist does is to make the patient realize that the condition is not hereditary. This immediately helps the patient somewhat. That his children do not inherit the condition, that he did not inherit the condition from his parents...
Q: In other words, it is something one can manage.
A: Yes, and with this it is much easier for him to manage the condition. So...
Q: In other words, somebody afflicted with the psychopathy finds himself essentially in a situation with no exit?
A: Well, this is a story basically without a way out.
Q: And in this case, what do you think, how one should behave towards such psychopaths? Should one fight psychopathy in general, or should one strive to avoid it in their own life, simply staying as far away from a person like this as possible?
A: Well, one should rather keep away from him as far as possible, because psychopathy... the first thing that is claimed, the American sources claim that it occurs three times more rarely among women than among men. In my opinion this is not so. It is inherited equally often. However, there is the second allele, the second chromosome X, which hides the condition to a great degree.
Q: In other words, it is more difficult to diagnose?
A: Yes, it is so that the condition does not manifest itself so much. As a result the woman is more normal, although these psychopathic qualities can be noticed and sensed. So, what is going on here? One may... psychopaths have this dream that they would like to govern. "We want to be the government," they think, and this dream is realized from time to time in the human history and this is a gruesome time. Yes?
Q: So, you consider that this occurs somewhat spontaneously... the striving towards power?
A: Yes, the dream of power occurs among psychopaths in groups, since they recognize each other in the crowd perfectly. A group is formed and within that group the dream of power appears as a rule, almost.
Q: And do you think that psychopaths feel for example threatened in some way, because...
A: They do feel threatened. Not only threatened... It is not only the fact that they are threatened. They are removed, "oppressed" by the society.
Q: That's why they think that they have to rule over this society...
A: They must either fight the society or acquire power, and this is so, exactly because they are "oppressed". And on the other hand they are displaced, because as far as essential psychopathy is concerned, they are incapable of manual work. Technically, they are unable to perform technical works. They chatter a lot, spoil the work, so the foreman says, "Get out of here, I don't need a person like you". They are discriminated against by the society of normal people everywhere, really discriminated, and here one should seek a solution.
Q: Is it a rule that they are so technically incapable?
A: In case of the essential psychopathy, yes, but schizoids, for example, sometimes happen to be technically inclined.
Q: So, to certain degree they must rely on others to survive, because alone...
A: They strive to feed on others. There is a variety of essential psychopathy which takes a slightly lighter form... These individuals are relatively modest and harmless. They only know how to milk various institutions and live without work, because work for them is something onerous, something that gives them a feeling of lower value and lack of resourcefulness.
Comment: Dabrowski points out that a psychopath may feel inferiority, but it is a strictly hierarchical inferiority. This awareness of a 'pecking order' only inspires a desire to somehow surpass the other individual. In the case of work, a psychopath may feel envious of another's position and prestige, but will not actually work to achieve that position. Instead he will brutally manipulate and exploit the work of others in order to achieve domination. Hare and Babiak describe this phenomenon in their book, Snakes In Suits.
Q: I have a question regarding this ability of psychopaths to recognize each other in a crowd, that there is almost a kind of telepathic contact among them.
A: They recognize each other in the crowd very quickly. Now, I would have to ponder a great deal to tell something more specific about how this contact works. In any case, they have a feeling of being different from the world that surrounds them from early childhood.
Q: But do they feel better or worse?
A: Once, of course, they accept themselves then they feel they are better, and those normal people are worse. But initially, they have this feeling of dissimilarity, sometimes feeling inferiority to their environment, and in a remarkably easy manner they recognize each other in the crowd. They immediately are befriended, two psychopaths.
Q: And do you think there is some sort of telepathy among them, perhaps? Are there any forms of non-verbal contact, some gestures, some way of looking, which can suggest... one such person suggests the other that...
A: Yes, they somehow sense one another. I have such an example not so far from here...
Q: So, you noticed something like this, that they have some form of non-verbal communication, which allows them to recognize each other in the crowd.
A: Yes, there is something like this, only it is hard to, if I can put it this way, materially capture this.
Q: Still the effects of this are apparent, that they are able to better recognize one of their kind, and they create these structures, which try...
A: The essential psychopaths always play the role of eminence grise in a group of warriors. So, if there is a group of such, a group of troubled teenagers, a gang of hooligans, then they... the leader is not necessarily an essential psychopath. Instead, he represents some other combination. But behind him there is a group of psychopaths, and this group governs the rest of slightly characteropathic individuals. This is the structure of such groups. I think that modern law is ignorant in regard to this reality and therefore has low effectiveness.
Q: Or one can say otherwise, that the law has been created by psychopaths...
A: No, no, no. The law was created by the normal people, principally, who did not understand psychopaths. It interprets the condition in the moralistic way, not in the biological one. Biologically, this is an inborn deficit and here what I have to emphasize: there is no psychological anomaly which can be considered an "overvalue". These are all always deficits. Something is missing.
Q: Are you able to estimate the scale of the phenomenon?
Q: What is the percentage of psychopathy?
A: Dear Sir, I had a quarrel about it with professor Dabrowski, because he was quoting very much inflated values, whereas I was working with the mass of people, especially in mining industry and therein one could establish how many psychopaths there are without efforts, for they all belonged to the party committee, Sir.
Comment: It should be noted that this was a population of workers, so the ratio of psychopaths would necessarily be low. In other social classes, it might be much higher!
Q: And your own research confirms this?
Q: ...that they allegedly naturally tend to gather together in such big groups?
A: Yes. So, he was not working in the mines. These normal people worked underground. When I went down, then "Oh! God Bless! God Bless! Mr. Psychologist came down." Then they had me always there... they seated me at the wall by the silt and told me jokes. These miners knew at once that I was their guy. So... well, my estimation was 0.6% essential psychopathy. The number of schizoids is slightly higher, somewhere around 0.8%. When one adds up all other conditions, or cases of combined psychopathic conditions, because Hitler was surely such a combination - he represented not one psychopathy, but a combination of several anomalies -
Q: And the current president of the United States?
A: Well Sir, no. You have gone too far in your conclusions in this matter.
A: Because I know America very well and their way of thinking. I knocked around there for eleven years. He is not [an essential psychopath]... clinically. No. This is my conviction. This is my perception of his person.
Comment: Note that Lobaczewski formed his opinion based solely on mainstream media reports reaching Poland. Long after this interview was conducted, he was provided with the evidence that George Bush and the Neocons were pathological. It caused him a great deal of distress.
Q: Well, he cannot be probably considered entirely normal...
A: Well, no. Well, my opinion is that he is a typical American. A typical American, who thinks in an American way. He cannot himself... an American cannot imagine that other people, other nations think a bit differently, that there are other cultures, other civilizations, that the Mohammedan civilization is completely different from the European and the Christian one. He, an American is unable to imagine this, because the entire world is built just like America... in their understanding. And he thinks that the Arabs react as if they were Americans. So, this is typical for America. If we considered this as a clinical condition, then it would mean that 80 or 90 percent of Americans are nuts, right?
Q: On the other hand it can be considered as some form of deficit.
A: No, no. Well, a form of deficit is that he is, let's say, less intelligent than his father, that he is less outstanding. His is quite an average mind, but brought up in the climate that his father was a president, and so on, and so forth...
Q: Do you think that there is something that could have been done in the past, that would cause a change in the course of history, so that at least some cases of psychopaths acquiring power did not occur?
A: Well, there was something that could have been done. Certainly it could have been done.
Q: What could have been done?
A: Certainly, something could have been done. It could have been done some good twenty years ago. Or even earlier, since a Hungarian went to America even before me, but I am unable to say anything about what happened then. I only know that there was somebody like this, because the Hungarians told me something on this subject in America. Then Dabrowski went there. Dabrowski had an exceptionally comfortable situation, because he had a doctorate that allowed him the right to practice in America. He did not have to strive; he did not have to validate his diploma. And even despite this they surrounded him with so many persecutions, that he did not manage to do anything and he was never allowed to talk about this subject when contacting Polish institutions. And eventually he moved North to Canada, to Edmonton, where they have frosts of -50 degrees Celsius. [A slight exaggeration. It rarely gets below -30 degrees!] So, he was active there and inspired others. He was also in contact with Cleckley.
Q: Returning to the question, what specifically could have been done, in your opinion?
A: Sir, first of all one should have supplemented the knowledge in regard to these matters scientifically, with detailed studies and then popularized it. Some institution should have been created, which openly states that this person is like this [psychopathic]... and in general a law should have been introduced that only normal people govern and such a law should have been passed by the UN, so, there is something that can be done in this respect.
In late September of 2006, we arranged for Dr. Łobaczewski to spend a week with us here in France. During that time, we conducted another interview that was videotaped and we are working on translation and subtitling the video.
During that week all of us here at QFG HQ got to know Łobaczewski as one of the kindest, gentlest humans we have ever encountered. Andrzej was very tall - almost a giant of a man - and he so much enjoyed our garden, spending many pleasant hours walking about in the Chateau park searching for edible mushrooms that he would present as an offering for the evening meal. Taking him to the airport to return to Poland was one of the hardest things we have ever done. He parted with the intention of returning to spend Christmas with us. Sadly, he wasn't able to because not long after his return, he became ill with a series of illnesses. He was hospitalized for a long period then. He wrote to Laura during that time:
I received today, Sunday 26. November, your mail of 13. Nov. I found this among 180 various mails, majority of them to be deleted. During this time I had no E-mail contact. There is a probability, that my telephone is overheard too.
Thank you for your concern for my eyes! Temporarily my condition does not permit any journey. No sooner I recovered from this strange infection, a new disease appeared - lambliose. The treatment goes right, but it always lasts over six weeks. Now I feel too week even for going to my ophthalmologist here. I hope still, it will gradually improve, making me able to take her advice. My neighbour here has had this operation done here in Rzeszów, and she enjoys good vision. Have please some patience for me. I hope to see you All again.
Please to acknowledge receiving of this news.
Throughout the remainder of the first half of 2007, our communication was mainly via telephone and snail mail because Andrzej's computer somehow would not connect to the internet any longer and no one where he lived could solve the problem for him.
In May or June of 2007, Sylvia Cattori contacted us and wanted to conduct an interview with him, but he was too weak at that point to write more than a few sentences. We discussed the interview with him in several phone calls, and the result is The Trick of the Psychopath's Trade: Make Us Believe that Evil Comes from Others.
We talked to Andrzej on the phone every week or two right up until late October of 2007. We tried to call several times in November, but there was no answer. Finally, we called and the number had been disconnected. Our sott editor in Poland made inquiries through a contact who lived in the same town where Dr. Łobaczewski lived and it was thus we learned that he had passed away after several weeks in the hospital. Right to the end he expected to get better and return to his research, but his organs failed one after the other. At 86 years old, after so much pain and suffering, perhaps he was ready to go, knowing that the torch had been passed. We believe that the work of this noble, incredibly courageous individual - and the man himself - should not be forgotten.